Working jointly with employers: training courses on social dialogue in Peru
Negotiating together towards a win-win result
Pursuing dialogue is not such a bad idea after all, as they discovered in Peru. After setting up a Peruvian Foundation of Labour, with support from Mondiaal FNV and its sister organisation for employers DECP, training sessions were given on how to negotiate. To achieve a mutually satisfactory outcome. The win-win method, in Spanish ganar-ganar, was enthusiastically received and has already resulted in a number of successes.
“Peru has scarcely any culture of dialogue to speak of and negotiations tend to go on for a very long time”, says Samuel Machacuay, FNV consultant and coordinator of the training project. “Partners won’t give in and they find it very difficult to put themselves in the other party’s position.” Here, there is no such thing as Informal discussion (‘kitchen table talks’). For the partners, it all hinges on the public image. They don’t want to create the impression that they’ve conceded too much. The most important negotiators in Peru are lawyers. This complicates the negotiations, because their focus is predominantly on legislation.”
A few years ago, thanks largely to efforts made by Mondiaal FNV and DECP, the Peruvian trade union federation CGTP and the employers’ organisation SNI established a Foundation of Labour. In that period, Dirk Joosse of DECP had already delivered training courses to SNI on the win-win method. The members of the Foundation wanted it to be prolonged. “In the first instance we only wanted to train trainers in win-win negotiations”, says Machacuay. “But for Peru this was not enough, we also need good advisors. So, we decided the course would have two components.”
Excellent cooperation in the long term
Dirk Joosse of DECP goes on to explain: “In 2018, I delivered a training course to one of the biggest exporters of fruit and vegetables: the management and the trade unions of Camposol, in the north of Peru. In the meantime, my book The Art of Negotiations had been translated into Spanish. Together with Lars Doyer, I had written it during my period at AWVN. This book also plays an important role in the project that we’re now engaged in. As well as so for the certification of the trainers.”
It is in effect specifically to do with working well together and concluding better collective agreements in the longer term, for the benefit of a well-functioning company and a well-functioning private sector.
Martien Robertz came and joined Joosse when the project had already been launched. “The good thing about what’s happening in Peru is that we seem to be progressing somewhat faster and further because embedding of the process is becoming steadily more concrete. All this thanks to the Foundation of Labour, the partnership with the unions and with a longer-term view in mind. It’s not only about the training of trainers to equip them to go out and work in the field. It is in effect specifically to do with working well together and concluding better collective agreements in the longer term, for the benefit of a well-functioning company and a well-functioning private sector.”
COVID-19 and the follow-up
The group of course participants was mixed. Some worked for companies, others were trade union leaders. “An interesting mix of mainly young people”, says Machacuay. “That was also the intention, because they are the future.” The course had a number of different components. The first part consisted of theoretical lessons. “I talked about what advisors do and then DECP addressed the issue of negotiating.” In the second part, the participants had themselves to develop a training module for advice provision. The third part consisted of practice work: delivering a training session themselves.
A taxing course, content-wise, organised under the banner of the Peruvian Foundation. But then all of a sudden, came COVID-19, the virus that shut down the entire world. Joosse and Robertz were still able to deliver the introductory course live in the Peruvian capital Lima but after that, flying was out of the question.
Astrid Kaag, policy advisor of Mondiaal FNV, was involved in the course in the background. “After the corona outbreak, I thought to myself: Goodness, what now?! Together with Dirk, Martien and Samuel we went online and discussed the follow-up to the training course. What then emerged was that the majority of the participants definitely wanted to continue and many wanted to work in a team in the same mix of backgrounds. They had quite simply carried on working and been developing a whole host of things. It was absolutely fantastic.”
Everyone contributed, including the participants
Doing role play in both sides’ shoes
“We had a big problem when COVID-19 descended on us”, agreed Machacuay. “The training course had been set up to be delivered in a classroom situation. When the lockdown came, we didn’t think we’d be able to finish it. We asked the participants whether they wanted to continue digitally. They did, but we then we had to totally adapt the programme. We did have lesson material, but not digitalised material. When you’re all together in a classroom, you have contact with one another and the communication is broader and more direct. Giving lessons virtually is different. You need more enriching material, such as video clips and other forms that can generate interaction. This proved to involve a huge amount of work, with a large number of group assignments. But we managed it. Everyone contributed, including the participants.”
20-year-old Dariana Jiménez Díaz of Centro de Altos Estudios de Negocios y Economía, the Peruvian Institute of Economics, was one of the participants in the employers’ contingent. She was not familiar with the negotiations method but found it interesting to be introduced to new sectors. “For me, the situation of employees is unfamiliar territory. I found it interesting to put myself in both sides’ shoes during the role play sessions.”
What she thought the more enjoyable part of the course was the interactive video, where the viewers were able to come to a synthesis. “it was about a brother and sister who both wanted the last remaining piece of a mandarin orange. Various scenarios then followed. One was that they fell out about it, which made things all rather unpleasant. The second one was that one of them got the mandarin, which gave the other one a sense of loss. The third scenario was that they talked things through: what do you want to do with the mandarin? It turned out that one wanted the peel for to go in a cake, and the other one wanted to drink the juice. So, it was totally unnecessary to fall out about it. From that, I learned that if a conflict is impending, you have to keep communicating and questioning why. This is something you come across in daily life too.”
Relationship with employer improved
34-year-old Jhimy Lázaro of the of the national trade union federation FNT-CGTP-ABA was part of the employees’ delegation at the training course. He had at some point heard of win-win negotiations, but didn’t believe in them. “For over 13 years now I’ve been working for Mondelēz International, a multinational that makes chocolate (including Côte d’Or) and biscuits (including LU). Mondelēz was willing to negotiate along these lines, but we weren’t familiar with the strategy and didn’t believe in it either. Within the Peruvian trade union movement, we have an old-fashioned way of negotiating. You ask for something, you don’t get it, and the situation hardens. And that’s how we did things.”
I’d no idea you can achieve so much with dialogue.
While following the training course he made a surprising discovery. “I’d no idea you can achieve so much with dialogue. Because we had to do role play, and get inside each other’s skins, I suddenly saw the other party’s dilemmas. And that was a really enjoyable experience too. ” Díaz adds: “The role plays were recorded, so that we could look back at them later. You then saw, for example, that someone raised his voice, as if he was seeking confrontation, whereas that wasn’t his intention at all. This was highly instructive.” Lázaro quickly discovered the benefits. ‘From the moment we began on the training, the relationship with the employer improved. Certain issues will keep on grating, but this method will help us arrive at a solution.’
Material very well assimilated
The programme began in November 2019 and was to end in April this year. But COVID-19 caused a delay, as a result of which the certificates were not awarded until 22 November. “The course was very labour-intensive, but the participants were highly motivated”, Machacuay tells us. “We began with 21 and 18 completed it. They all invested energy in preparing the modules. There were people there who were on shift work and then because of COVID-19 suddenly found themselves working 12 hours a day instead of 8. Sometimes they wanted to join us in the morning, and then at other times in the evening. It often meant a lot of searching for the best time, but there was a great deal of understanding for each other. We often worked on the course on Saturdays and Sundays. What we now have is material of a very high quality, and it belongs to everyone.”
The presentation of the certificates took place online. Joosse, Robertz and Kaag were present. Right up to that moment, the participants were able to put their last questions to the DECP people. “The kind of signals we picked up were quite remarkable”, says Joosse. “The questions they put were excellent, and we could tell that they’d assimilated the material very well. They’d interacted very positively together. In February, we’d already noticed that they were highly eager to learn and this has quite clearly continued.”
Continuing the provision of training courses
The idea is for the trained trainers to pass on their knowledge to new cba delegations of employers and employees. They will also give advice while cbas are in progress. Under the banner of the Foundation, they can be engaged officially, so that training and advice become paid-for services. After the corona period, Joosse and Robertz will fly to Lima to provide the group with new impulses. “Refreshing and deepening of knowledge is a must”, says Joosse.
Díaz sees a great challenge for the now certified participants, “because Peru now finds itself in a complex situation. Above all, we must continue providing training courses and advertising them. We have now given training courses to unions and employers. We’ve already learned a great deal from them, because it’s in actual practice that you gain the greatest experience, and this enables us to deliver professional work.” As trade union leader of the FNT-CGTP-ABA, Lázaro has a lot to do with trade unions that have to take part in collective bargaining every year. “I’ll now be able to train and advise them in the win-win approach and I’m looking forward to that.”
Sustainable Development Goals
The training courses are a good example of how we are working on the Sustainable Development Goals: